“I think he’d be over the bloody moon,” says legendary bassist Peter Hook, when asked how late Joy Division frontman Ian Curtis would react to Joy Division/New Order’s induction into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. “[Ian’s] big point of reference was always the Doors. ‘We’re going to be as big as the Doors!’ He loved Jim Morrison. So, for us to be in L.A. for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony, he’d be over the bloody moon.”
Unfortunately, though, while Hook says “wild horses” wouldn’t keep him away from attending, performing, and honoring Curtis’s legacy at the Rock Hall Class of 2026 ceremony, which will take place at Los Angeles’s Peacock Theater on Nov. 14, he confirms that he won’t be celebrating alongside Joy Division’s surviving members. “After what they did to me, I’m afraid it’s unforgivable,” he says flatly.
Hook co-founded Manchester, England’s pioneering post-punk band Joy Division in 1976 with Bernard “Barney” Sumner and Stephen Morris, and in 1980 — mere days after the 23-year-old Curtis’s tragic suicide on the eve of what would have been Joy Division’s first U.S. tour — Hook, Sumner, Morris, and new addition Gillian Gilbert regrouped and carried on as the synthpop outfit New Order, eventually finding even greater success. “One minute it was all there; the next minute, the whole thing was gone and picking up like a Phoenix rising from the ashes,” Hook recalls.
It would be assumed that enduring such a harrowing ordeal would have bonded the band members for life. But following Hook’s acrimonious exit from New Order in 2007, a long-running battle between him and his ex-bandmates (particularly Sumner) culminated in Hook’s lawsuit claiming that he was cut out of more than $3 million in royalties. A “full and final settlement” was reached in 2017 regarding Hook’s legal use of the Joy Division and New Order trademarks for his own group, Peter Hook & the Light, who perform songs from both bands’ catalogs. But according to Hook, he and Sumner have not spoken in 15 years. “I think the [broken] bond is probably what hurts the most,” he admits.
Peter Hook & the Light could of course easily handle all Joy Division/New Order performance duties at November’s Rock Hall ceremony. (The Light’s live shows typically run “two hours and 47 minutes; sometimes it goes down at 2:45,” Hook quips — as he holds up the extensive setlist he’s planning for his upcoming 50th-anniversary Manchester Academy concert, which will also include songs from his side bands Revenge, Monaco, and Freebass.) But legally, that won’t likely be possible, so Hook plans to perform with to-be-determined guest stars. “I can’t really tell you who! But I’ll play on my own, if I have to,” he says with a grin.
In the Q&A below that Hook jokingly likens to a “therapy session,” he opens up about what his Rock Hall appearance might look like; how he feels about the Light touring this summer playing Get Ready, the New Order “honeymoon record” that he and Sumner recorded right before band relations unraveled irreparably; his biggest regret regarding Curtis’s death; and how he finally learned to deal with his grief.
LYNDSANITY: Congratulations! Finally, Joy Division and New Order are in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, after being nominated three times. How are you feeling about this long-overdue honor? Obviously, there’s a lot to process here.
PETER HOOK: Oh, youcan saythat again! [laughs] The interesting thing from my point of view is that when [the first nomination] happened, we’ve always been behind it as Peter Hook & the Light, absolutely 100 percent. And we worked to get in. The first time, the others [in Joy Division/New Order] were a little bit behind it, but the second and third, they hardly mentioned it. So, it’s a bit of a strange, weird feeling — like it’s not going to be weird anyway! It’s been a bit of a tsunami.
Well, that brings me to the billion-dollar question. It seems like you’re on board with the Hall and always have been, so I assume you’re going to be there. But I don’t know about your former bandmates. What’s going to happen? Will you all appear together? Will you reunite?
Oh, no. After what they did to me, I’m afraid it’s unforgivable. They would need Donald Trump and Henry Kissinger together to broker any kind of peace with us. The Hormuz Strait in Manchester is not opening up again, let’s put it that way. I don’t know what [New Order] are doing, in the same way that nobody ever knows. I saw their statement, which I thought was a little bit odd. … I mean, it came from “New Order,” which made me laugh, because am I not part of New Order?
I must admit, I was hoping for a different answer, but if you’d actually told me that a reunion was going to happen, I probably would’ve fallen off my chair.
If you’d have told me it was going to happen, I would’ve fallen off my chair! [laughs]
Well, obviously the Light could play on their own at the ceremony, but I’m sure there are legal or just political issues that would prevent that from happening. So, what are you envisioning? You’re definitely going to be there, right?
Oh, I’m going to be there. Wild horses wouldn’t keep me away. … I’ve not seen Barney for 15 years. Actually, I saw him walk past me once when I was in a bar and I’d won my side of the court case; he soon scampered off, because I’d won on that occasion. That was the last time I saw him, but I didn’t speak to him. And that’s 15 years. I’ve not seeing Gillian for 15 years. I spoke to Steve about four years ago when we were having another legal conflab. There’s been no social talk. And it is a shame, because the thing is, you don’t get to celebrate anything with anyone. But it’s just what happened. I suppose in a funny way, we’ve all moved on, but I was still really hurt by what they did to me and my family when they took the name, and how they’ve acted since. And even though you’ve made a kind of uneasy peace, shall we say, you are still not going to rush into each other’s arms.
It’s going to be very, very awkward [if the other New Order members attend show up]. But I mean, the thing is, my God, I’m 70. Barney’s 70. Steve’s 67. I mean, we’re all blokes, so we’re not going to be chasing each other around very fast, are we? “Come here, ya bastard!” [laughs] It’d probably be hilarious to witness.
Well, you’d have to play at the ceremony, in some capacity, because there is no one else that plays bass like you. Your bass-playing is so integral to the songs that honestly, when I see the Light perform, they sound more like classic New Order than the real New Order there days.
In a funny way, [New Order] have done me a favor by sounding, in some songs, completely unlike New Order [live], so that I can play it exactly how we did it and be true to the sound that I love. That’s my band. I mean, I was there. Barney’s taste changed and his ideas changed, and while we were together I expressed very much that I didn’t agree with what he was doing to the music. I made a deal with myself when we went back that if I thought there was something wrong, this time I wouldn’t swallow it and go bang my head on the wall and bury myself in drugs and drink. I’d actually f—ing say it. So, I made myself say it. But I remember we were having a [band] discussion once and … someone said, “Listen, why don’t we compromise?” And I went, “OK, let’s compromise,” and Barney was sat there with a weird look on his face and went, “No, I’m waiting for you to compromise!” Um, that’s not how compromise works.
I do think it’s strange that New Order and Joy Division are a joint inductee, not just because I feel both deserve to be in the Hall on their own, but also because — despite sharing three members — they are very different groups. Does the dual-induction bother you?
Well, from my point of view, the songwriting trio in Joy Division were very, very active all the way through New Order as a trio as well. There is a massive thread going through both bands. … I fully and quite categorically state, here and now, that if Ian had been around, he would’ve been singing on [New Order’s] “Blue Monday.” He was a great electronic [music] lover. It was Ian that introduced me to Kraftwerk. He introduced me to Can, Faust, all these Krautrock, dance-rock bands. He was well on board with everything we were doing. I remember we did a song called “The Only Mistake,” which was quite a disco rhythm, and he absolutely loved it. It was his favorite song because of the dance element. He always used to go on: “Oh, ‘The Only Mistake,’ it should be a single!” But it didn’t happen because of… I mean, it’s hard, isn’t it? Because Joy Division finished so suddenly. One minute it was all there; the next minute, the whole thing was gone and picking up like a Phoenix rising from the ashes. It was very, very difficult.
But we were still the same people. Barney, Steve, and I were the same people. The reason we got Gillian in, who actually wasn’t very skilled, was because we didn’t want anyone to change the sound. We didn’t want to bring in an established guitarist like Steve Severin [of Siouxsie and the Banshees], or Keith Levene [of the Clash and PiL], or anybody like that, who would come in and change the sound. We were being very, I suppose, selfish in that regard. So, she was thrown in at the deep end, if you like, with what was three very experienced songwriters.
But I can see the highway going through both, and [the dual nomination] doesn’t bother me. I think the interesting thing that I found when I started playing Joy Division’s music in 2010 [with the Light], I noticed that there was a great divide between Joy Division fans and New Order fans. What used to happen was when I was playing a Joy Division set, all the Joy Division lot would be at the front, and then when I played the New Order set, they’d all go to the bar and the New Order fans would come forward. But now, over my period of playing it, that divide seems to have gone.
So, will you be performing at the Hall ceremony with different all-star guests?
I can’t really tell you who! But I’ll play on my own, if I have to. … I was very disappointed because I would’ve had the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy [Corgan] and obviously Jack [Peter’s son, who plays with both the Light and the Pumpkins]. It would’ve been wonderful, but [the Smashing Pumpkins] are playing with bloody Morrissey that day [at the Darker Waves festival in Orange County]! How small a world is that?
Yes, and another Manchester artist, Oasis, will be inducted alongside you in the Class of 2026, so it will be an overall very Mancunian day in Southern California on Nov. 14.
How nuts is that? Oasis played their first-ever gig with Noel [Gallagher] on guitar, supporting Revenge, my old outfit. Liam [Gallagher] came up to me that night and said, “We’ve changed our name from the Rain and we’ve got our kid on guitar. It’s his first gig tonight.” I went, “Yeah, whatever” — grizzled old rocker that I was then! So, yeah, Oasis played their first-ever gig with me.
It is indeed a small world! It’s too bad Billy Corgan isn’t available, but have you given any thought to who might sing the Joy Division songs at the Hall ceremony? There are countless artists who have been influenced by Ian Curtis, and some who even sound like him, but there was only one Ian Curtis.
I felt a bit blank about it for a while. And then Jack, my son, said to me, “I’ve done a list.” He showed me his list and I was like, wow.
Who was on that list?
I cannot tell! … But I’ve been very flattered by the names that have been suggested.
Well, let me suggest one possibility. Hear me out: Grace Jones. She covered Joy Division early on, and she’s an icon who should be in the Hall herself.
Grace Jones did [Joy Division’s] first cover version. She paid us, and oh my God, it couldn’t have been better-timed! Her record company actually paid us 20,000 pounds for permission to put out “She’s Lost Control,” which she did with Sly & Robbie, and we’d have [accepted] about 50 quid! We couldn’t believe it; we nearly fell off our chairs again in that moment, that we got offered that amount of money when it would’ve been an honor anyway. And then really amazingly, there’s an A&R man at Polydor called the Captain; he was very well-known, a real character. And he came to me and said, “Hooky, we’re putting out a new Grace Jones collection. Can you do me a 12-inch version of Grace’s ‘She’s lost Control’?” And Potsy [David Potts] and I, as Monaco, did a 12-inch remix of “She’s Lost Control.” I actually got to sing with Grace… and then just as the record was about to come out, [the Captain and Jones] fell out. It’s a fantastical version. It really, really turned out well. I don’t know what the hell happened to it, but it’s never been out. And we did a reggae version as well, which was amazing. … I’ve got a feeling the whole thing’s disappeared somewhere, but we’ve still got the tapes.
Well, there you go! You and Grace Jones can perform “She’s Lost Control” at the Hall.
I must admit, as heroines go, she is up there, Grace. My God, her book was outrageous. I just love her. … You know what? Because you’ve given me the idea, I will put her on my list.
Awesome! But regardless of who takes on the Ian Curtis vocals at the ceremony, I’m curious — how do you think Ian would feel about this honor? The Rock & Roll Hall of Fame didn’t even exist when he was still alive, and mainstream, American-based accolades, especially for a band that was still so young and from Manchester, probably weren’t even on your guys’ radar then. But now that he will be honored for the immense contributions he made to music during his very short time on Earth, how do you think he’d react?
I think he’d be over the bloody moon. Because he used to spend all his time telling us how great we were and what we were going to achieve and where we were going to go. And literally if you wavered at any point, he would grab you by the lapels — he was like that guy in the trenches when you can’t go over the top, going, “Come on, you can do it! Get up there!” He was always that kind of guy, and he was convinced. And it was funny, because his big point of reference was always the Doors. “We’re going to be as big as the Doors!” He loved Jim Morrison. So, for us to be in L.A. for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony, he’d be over the bloody moon.
I think some people would be surprised to hear that Ian wanted to be a rock star, given his persona and the mythology surrounding him, and also the timing that he died passed right before the big opportunity of Joy Division’s U.S. tour. Many people might assume that he was willfully anti-commercial and didn’t want success or fame.
I mean, it’s a dream, isn’t it? Anybody who says, “I don’t want success” probably means they don’t want the problems that come with success. But the rest of it, I have to say, is pretty good. I mean, I’ve suffered from the problems that come with success, which is usually excess. Success and excess are very, very close together. But God, moaning musicians, how many do you know? They all moan about everything, don’t they? It’s sort of endemic. If they play to big crowds, they want to play to small crowds. If they play to small crowds, they want to play to big crowds.
But Ian was adamant, whether it was just his way of perking us up — which worked every time. It’s always the contradiction there, that we couldn’t do it enough for him. We couldn’t perk him up enough to make him want to stay around, which is quite an odd thing to admit: that he kept us up, but we couldn’t keep him up for whatever reason. But there’s been a few suggestions for Ian [from the Rock Hall], which are nice and could work out well.
Was the fact that Ian has such belief in the band a big motivating factor in the decision to continue as New Order, instead of just throwing in the towel? I have always been so surprised about how quickly you regrouped and soldiered on.
Do you want me to tell you the story?
Of course.
OK. We went to the inquest on a Thursday in Macclesfield, the inquest with the coroner, and it was horrible. [Ian’s widow Deborah Curtis’s parents] spoke, and it was heartbreaking. It was terrible. It was awful. And [Joy Division’s manager] Rob Gretton, after the end of it, went, “Come on, let’s go for a drink.” So, we went for a drink to a pub and we had something to eat and we were all sat there, and everyone was very quiet, obviously. And Rob Gretton said, “I’ve not asked, but what are you lot going to do? ” And we went, “What do you mean?” And he went, “Well, are you going to go back to work, or are you going to carry on?” We sort of looked at each other, me, Barney, and Steve, and just went, “Well, should we carry on?” And they went, “Yeah.”
So, we made a date to go in on Monday to the rehearsal room, which was really weird because Ian wasn’t there. It was the first time we’d been back. And we got there at the usual time, 10 o’clock, started playing, and never looked back. And weirdly, Thursday was the inquest, and on the Sunday afternoon, the house where I was living, we had no furniture. I used to go and sit on the floor in the back bedroom of this house with no furniture and play. And I actually wrote the six-string bassline to “Dreams Never End” that Sunday afternoon. So, when I went in on Monday, when we started again, the first song that we started with was “Dreams Never End” — which was suppose was quite apt, really. And that was it.
The interesting thing about that was that, because we were so focused on carrying on, we didn’t really get hit with the grief. Now, when you’re older, you realize the importance of grief. When you’re younger, you’d do anything to avoid it at any cost. And you’re allowed to avoid it as well. One of my biggest regrets in life is the fact that I didn’t go and say goodbye to Ian Curtis.
Do you mean at his funeral?
No. You can go and see the body. And I didn’t go. Neither me nor Barney went, because we stood there and I said, “Well, I don’t want to see him dead.” But everybody else went. I don’t know if Steve or Gillian went, but [Factory Records co-founder] Tony [Wilson] went and Rob went. Me and Barney never went, and I regretted it. … If someone had said to me, “Get your ass in there, that’s your mate, and go and say goodbye!” … I wish somebody had done that. Because for me, saying goodbye to someone you love is quite an important thing. I’ve never missed an opportunity since, but I always regret missing that. I don’t know if Barney does or not, but it was just us two that didn’t go. I went to see Rob, and went to see Tony [when Gretton and Wilson respectively died in 1999 and 2007]. I’ve said goodbye to a lot of people. It’s a bit like being surrounded by ghosts, to be honest with you. But I think they’d all be delighted [about the Rock Hall induction]. Tony in particular would be thrilled. Rob would just go, “It should have been years ago!”
You said regrouping so quickly as New Order was a way to not necessarily process your grief, but avoid your grief. Was there a moment later, even if it was decades later, where you did finally come to terms with your grief?
Well, you have to come to terms with it, because you’ve got to carry on, haven’t you? I mean, it’s a great world. We’re doing our best to destroy it, but it is a great world and there’s so many wonderful things that you can do. It is awful when you can’t [do anything]. I was clinically depressed at one point, and it was an awful, awful, awful thing. And whatever happens to me since that, I’ve always said the same thing: that I would never go down that particular rabbit hole again. I’m very lucky that my family look after me, so I wouldn’t have to.
Did your battle with depression help you better emphasize or understand with Ian did what he did when he’d been in his own dark place?
Oh, wow. Well, [my depression was due to] a nasty divorce. It was very, very depressing, though. I suppose depression gives you an understanding into what effect it can have on you physically and mentally. But suicides are different, aren’t they? We just lost a friend two years ago, and he did that thing where they give all the possessions away. And Ian did that, but I never found out until, oh my God, 25 years after he died, or maybe even longer. I saw Ian on a Friday night. He killed himself on Saturday night. My friend, who went to see him on Saturday afternoon, said Ian was trying to give away all his possessions. But he never told me that until 25 years later. … I didn’t know Ian was giving his stuff away, because I would’ve gone, “Whoa, we need to keep an eye on him.” So yeah, it was weird in that respect. But [my depression] wasn’t pleasant, and I’m very aware of the symptoms now. Didn’t Winston Churchill call it the “Black Dog”? Sometimes I can see the black dog in the corner of my eye — and that’s where it has to stay. So, I do look after myself and have to be careful. It’s the same thing with alcoholism and drug addiction. You are aware of it, so you have to be careful.
I think it’s great that you’re talking about this and that people are more aware, because in the ‘70s and ‘80s when Ian was struggling, no one was talking about mental health at all. It has really only become a topic of open discussion in recent years.
Yes. So, are you available next week at this time for another therapy session? [laughs]
Any time you need my help, I would be happy to.
We didn’t talk about your rates!
I will do it pro bono! But seriously, I think it’s important to talk about this stuff.
It is important. And in many ways it actually helps when somebody you know and love is going through it. Life is a learning process.
Peter Hook & the Light are touring in August and September, and the timing is interesting, because the album you’re focusing on is Get Ready. That was New Order’s comeback after an eight-year recording hiatus, and you’ve described it as a “honeymoon record” made while you and Bernard were getting along, before everything fell apart again. Since Get Ready was basically the beginning of the end for you and New Order, does it feel bittersweet to revisit that material now?
Bittersweet? It’s been bittersweet for a long time. It really has. I mean, it’s funny for me because the only thing that got me through the court case was playing the music and doing the gigs, because that gave me the lift to be able to carry on fighting for what I thought was right. It’s interesting with Get Ready: I didn’t know this, but it was our best-selling album in America. It sold more than Republic, and more than Technique. … Barney and I did it more or less alone, and I think that there was a lot of using each other’s strengths; that was the “honeymoon” side of it. It was like being in Joy Division again. … I must admit, it’s been my favorite LP to play [with the Light], and I didn’t expect that.
I consider the saga of New Order to be one of the greatest comeback stories in rock — right up there with AC/DC and the B-52s, who also both survived losses that many bands would not be able to recover from. That’s why I feel it’s bittersweet that New Order won’t reunite at the Hall. You went through something that very few people can imagine. There’s got to be some kind of bond still there.
I think the bond is probably what hurts the most. … But it’s OK. It’s good. So, I’ll see you same time next week? [laughs]
Sure, if you need another “therapy session”! But if not, I look forward to seeing you at the Class of 2026 ceremony. I am very happy for you, and for your ex-bandmates as well, and I’m happy to know that Ian would have been excited about this.
Yes, I must go and see him, actually. I’ve not seen him for a while, so I must go and see him.
Do you mean visit Ian’s grave?
Yeah. I’ve been meaning to, and I must do it. Maybe I’ll tell you what he says.
The above Q&A originally ran on Gold Derby, and has been edited for brevity and clarity. Watch Peter Hook’s full interview in the video at the top of this page.
