Most people know Mitch Grassi from Pentatonix, who won NBC’s talent show The Sing-Off in 2011, parlayed that opportunity into YouTube stardom, and eventually won three Grammys and made history as the first a cappella group to chart a No. 1 album on the Billboard 200.

But Mitch Grassi is also Messer. And if you only know Grassi from Pentatonix (or from Superfruit, his spinoff duo with PTX bandmate Scott Hoying), then you do not know Messer.

Grassi debuted his darkwave pandemic project via Messer’s 2021 EP Roses, with his identity semi-concealed behind witchy Cousin It wigs and blurry visuals. But now, his face and distinctive tenor are front-and-center as he promotes the first full Messer album, Cuts, which sounds lighter and frothier, especially on its lead single, the glitchy hyperpop bop “Not Yet.” This is the result of Grassi now being blissfully in love (“Not Yet” is a “long-distance anthem” about his boyfriend of two years), of him taking stock, and him taking the time to find his true voice — figuratively and literally. Cuts is still a massive departure from the festive fare of perennial Christmas darlings Pentatonix, but Grassi says his fans aren’t all that surprised by this facet of his artistry.

“I think even in the context of Pentatonix, I’ve never been the clean-cut, ‘normal’ member of the band,” Grassi, who’s famous for his haute couture style and outsized personality, tells Lyndsanity with a chuckle. “I think people expect surprises from me… a lot of the Pentatonix fans were like, ‘OK, this kind of makes sense. He’s doing something a little bit off-kilter, a little unusual with his music.’ But this current record, I think, is a little more digestible. And it’s funny, because it feels much more authentic to me than the previous [Messer] record.”

In the video above and Q&A below, Grassi opens up about his “bicoastal” romance; the “slow-burn damage to the identity” he felt while growing up with rigid gender stereotypes in conservative Texas; his evolving fashion sense; how he “delved a lot into shadow work,” “turned toward the darker parts of myself,” and experienced “a bit of an ego death” while making Cuts; and why on Messer’s records, he feels he’s finally singing the way he “was meant to sing.”

LYNDSANITY: If people only know you from Pentatonix or Superfruit, Messer will be a surprise because it’s a whole different thing. Four years ago, when you released Roses, I feel you were maybe hiding who you were. Besides it obviously not being under your name, you were wearing wigs, and the visuals were very murky. I’m curious about the evolution of Messer since then.

MITCH GRASSI: You’re kind of right on the money about that. I think I was really scared to kind of take this leap, and so I was trying to do it in a way that was kind of a “soft-launch” of the next step. I was kind of unsure, still finding my footing, trying to figure out the sound. And I was also in a really weird place with my vocals too, because they’re so present in the world of Pentatonix, and I wanted to show that the vocals were equally as important as the music behind them. So, [the sounds] sort of became more washy on that first record, and yeah, I had the long wig. I think more importantly, I wanted to make a statement that this was something completely different from what I had established with the band.

Completely different. It’s dark. It’s sexy. I hear darkwave, witchhouse, electropop… I actually hear some electroclash too.

I was really big into electroclash when I was a teenager, so I think there’s a lot of shades of that in my music. … Fischerspooner was a big one for me. Peaches, Tiga, all the greats.

When you put out Roses, it was 10 years after Pentatonix won The Sing-Off and launched their career. Had you wanted to do something like Messer for a long time?

I had been wanting to do it for a long time, and I was afforded… I don’t want to say the gift of time, because COVID obviously was a very devastating time in the world. But we all were stuck in our homes, and we had a lot of time to kind of reevaluate, and that’s exactly what I did. I had time to listen to more music and ingest some more art and find some inspiration. I just had all this time, and I was like, “OK, I think now is as good a time as any. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to start writing and start making music and see where it takes me.” And it was really scary, but it was just important for me to take this leap, because Pentatonix is a big part of my identity and my identity is a big part of it, but of course it is a collaborative process and I have to run my ideas by four other people. We all do. I wanted to experiment with another environment where I could just be my own boss and choose my own ideas and curate my own vocals. It’s not something I’d ever done before.

There are probably some people — and I don’t mean this in any shady way — that have a certain perception of Pentatonix, of being “square,” or very mainstream, or very clean-cut, or very pop. And maybe some people who would otherwise like the kind of music that Messer does wouldn’t be open-minded to it if they knew it was you. I’m wondering if that was a concern — that people would be like, “The Pentatonix guy? No way!” And wouldn’t give Messer a chance.

I understand that concern completely. If you’re a big fan of someone and you’re used to seeing them in a certain light in a certain creative environment, you’re like, “No, don’t do this. I’m used to this, and this is what makes me happy! Make more of this!”

Yeah, you’re right — some Pentatonix fans might be resistant. But I’m also talking about people who aren’t Pentatonix fans, who wouldn’t take you seriously because you come from a reality show, or you’re a YouTube star, or an a cappella star. But yeah, then there’s the other side, the Pentatonix fans who would be like, “Oh, no, this is not what I want from Mitch!” So, you had to straddle both concerns, really.

Yeah, definitely. And I didn’t want to alienate anyone, but I wanted to make a clear statement that I’m going to do what I want to do creatively. … At the end of the day, I just want my music to be enjoyed. And I think even in the context of Pentatonix, I’ve never been the clean-cut, “normal” member of the band. I think people expect surprises from me because I’m always staying true to myself. So, I just do the things that I feel look and sound good. I think a lot of the Pentatonix fans were like, “OK, this kind of makes sense. He’s doing something a little bit off-kilter, a little unusual with his music.” But this current record, I think, is a little more digestible. And it’s funny, because it feels much more authentic to me than the previous record.

How so?

With the previous record, I find that I was trying to box it in and I was trying to make it this ‘80s-inspired darkwave/synthpop record, because that’s what I was listening to at the time. And with Cuts, I wanted to make music that came naturally to me, that I wasn’t trying to force a genre upon. Like with “Not Yet.” I love that song. I’m so proud of that song. I think it’s my favorite off of the record because with that one I wasn’t trying to make it any sort of genre. I wasn’t trying to copy any sound or anything like that. It’s just the sound that came out of me naturally. And I think the rest of them are like that too; it’s hard to pin any sort of genre onto the rest of Cuts.

Were you listening to anything during the making of Cuts that pushed the sound in the direction that Messer has gone into?

I’m a big fan of Imogen Heap, especially the Frou Frou era. I draw a lot of influence from her; I always have, since I was a teenager. And Madonna, because I feel that she’s always genre-bending and genre-defying. Röyksopp, I really am a big fan of. And then I really got into video game soundtracks, specifically Akira Yamaoka who does Silent Hill, and I was really inspired by just kind of the PlayStation 2 of it all. I feel like the liquid drum ‘n’ bass sound was popular at that time and I was finding a lot of that online, and it just really puts me in a particular state that influenced the music a lot.

You mentioned how even within the Pentatonix ranks, you’re known as sort of the outlier or the “weird” one. And you’re quite the fashionista! If I look at old footage of Pentatonix, you look very different. I want to hear about your fashion evolution.

It’s tough because I find as the years have gone on, I’m really just more of a fan of simplicity and of creating beautiful shapes with the clothes that I wear on my body, and not necessarily all about making a “statement” anymore. I feel like when I was younger, it was more about the fashion statements and “what I can wear that’s unusual? “and “how I can stand out?” and “how I can wear things that nobody else has worn?” But as I get older, I find that comfort is really important, and shape. I really appreciate good suiting, and I’m a big fan of what Anthony Vacarello is doing at Saint Laurent right now. But the fashion landscape is interesting because — no shade! — I find that a lot of it is not super-original. Which I guess could be said about a lot of artistic mediums, is that there’s really nothing that’s original anymore. So, I think going back to basics with fashion is where I’m at right now, and it feels the least cringe on my body specifically. [laughs]

Have you ever designed clothes or had a capsule collection or anything like that? Would you want to do that?

I would love to do that. I love what the Olson twins are doing with the Row. I’m a big fan of the Row too, and that’s exactly what I’m talking about. It’s the simplicity, and it’s all about beautiful shapes and tailoring and just making a perfect garment. That is really inspiring to me. I don’t think I would do anything extravagant necessarily, but it’s all about highlighting the body in really beautiful ways.

When you were leaning more into super-flamboyant, over-the-top fashions before, was that in any way a reaction to your conservative upbringing in Texas? Like, “I’m just going to go crazy now and wear whatever I want! I’m going to wear heels and makeup!” Was there any connection there?

It’s a good question. I’m sure it was a reaction to my upbringing, because I always had an interest in fashion when I was a kid and a teenager and always wanted to wear flamboyant, extravagant clothing, and never really got the opportunity. So, as I got a little bit older, earned a little bit of money, and lost a little bit of weight, I was like, “Oh, I can fit into these beautiful clothes that I appreciate. I’m just going to go all-in and experiment and see where it takes me.” I think that that’s a very “Mitch” thing to do — getting obsessed with one particular thing and taking it to the extreme. I think that’s a great example.

Does that approach apply to Messer as well? Obsessiveness can be a good thing in art, because you’re laser-focused on what you’re doing.

Yeah, I think so. And I have a tendency to really be distracted easily too, so I think it helps me to really choose something to work off of, a jumping-off point.

You mentioned that Messer initially was a pandemic project. It must have been good to have something to obsess over and be so focused on during that time.

Oh, definitely. That was a very strange time. I can’t believe it was five years ago already!

Cuts is not as dark as the Roses EP, both sonically and visually. Is that because this record was made as we were coming out of that lockdown era?

Good question. Potentially. I was finding my way musically and creatively, and I was on a journey with these collaborators that really brought out the best in me, and I think I was just enjoying it. And then along the way while making this record, I fell in love, and that was really exciting and changed my perspective kind of in every way. I think it added a lightness, and also I would say a lot of vulnerability and insecurity and some fear. But mostly excitement and happiness.

I can totally see you glowing as you say that. Who are you in love with, and how long has this relationship been going on?

My partner, we met in Germany. We met on tour while I was touring with Pentatonix. We had a show in Berlin and met there. We just celebrated our two-year anniversary [on July 15].

Congratulations! Berlin seems very “Mitch.” It’s such a glamorous, sophisticated, fashionable city. Bowie recorded his famously recorded his trilogy there. So, was this a long-distance thing, or do you live in Berlin now? 

It was long-distance at first. And then I was like, “You know what? Let’s just see what it’s like living over there in Berlin for a little bit.” So, I went over there at the top of last year, and then we got a place there, and now we’re… I don’t even know if you would call it “bicoastal,” but we’re in L.A. and Berlin; we go back and forth. So, I’m half-and-half now.

I’m curious to hear more about how your relationship and being in love affected the sound of Cuts.

“Not Yet” is a great example. That is kind of the “long-distance anthem” to me. I wrote that when we were getting really serious and I was on the road, and it was really hard to find times to talk to him. And I was busy and I was just like, “Oh, it’s great,” but it’s also torturous because you want to be 24/7 talking to the person that you’re so in love with, and it’s basically like you’re just killing time. It’s just a waiting game until the next time you can see them. I’m sure people in long-distance relationships can relate.

I’ve read that the Messer project has pulled some inspiration from your conservative upbringing in Texas. Could you have ever imagined, growing up in Arlington, that you’d be one day be bicoastal-living in Berlin and Los Angeles?

No, no way! I never thought that. I never thought I would live in Europe at all. Life takes you to some crazy places sometimes. But I think my art is definitely a direct result of my upbringing and my childhood and the experiences I’ve been through — beautiful or traumatic. I think it’s all a result of that, and it’s my way of processing the things that I’ve seen and been through, and it’s my way of turning them into something beautiful that people can relate to or just simply enjoy.

I know you had the support system of your glee club and choir and theater friends, which I think is so important for all kids, especially for queer kids or just kids that feel weird or different in any way. But you said the word “traumatic.” What it was like for you growing up in Arlington?

It wasn’t the worst thing in the world. There were some hard moments, but I think it was it kind of like a slow-burn damage to the identity. Because in places like that — no hate to Arlington, it raised me — but in places like that, especially in America, it can be very black-and-white. “Men are like this. Women are like this.” There’s no gray area at all. There’s no nuance. So, because I wasn’t “black” or “white” on that scale, I felt very alienated and I was questioning my identity a lot. I think for a long time I was kind of telling myself, “Oh, you’re not a real man if you don’t do these things” and “you don’t have any semblance of masculinity because you don’t live up to this particular mold of what a man should be in today’s society.” I think that has affected a lot of the choices I’ve made in life, specifically creatively too. And it’s led me to rebel a lot, which I think is a blessing in disguise. Because it led me to explore a lot of facets of my identity that maybe I wouldn’t have explored, had I not been conditioned in that way.

At what age did you come out, and was that a positive experience or not-so-positive experience?

I came out to friends when I was 15, and then to my parents and my family when I was 16. … It was positive. There was little to no backlash, I would say. I think people were kind of like, “Oh, yeah. OK.” And it afforded me sort of the upper hand too when any bullies or naysayers wanted to say something or they wanted to call me “gay.” I would just be like, “Well, yeah. True. Yes. What else ya got?” [laughs]

Were you bullied a lot as a kid?

It wasn’t a lot, but the moments that did happen, they stick with you. You remember those moments and they cut really deep. So, it wasn’t necessarily frequent, but it definitely affected me a lot. Kids don’t really realize the weight of their words, I think.

Is that why you gravitated towards the a cappella and theater worlds, for sense of the community?

Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, I loved the arts and music and I naturally gravitated toward people that shared the same interests, but that was also the part of the student body that was the most open, the most accepting, and the most fun.

On Cuts, what have you explored about yourself, your past, and your identity that you haven’t previously explored?

That’s a thinker! [pauses to mull it over] Well, I think when you fall in love and you have such deep feelings for somebody else and you want to bring your best to the table in a relationship, you start to really think about yourself a lot. And you think about your flaws and the things you need to work on and the things you haven’t faced yet. I delved a lot into shadow work and turned toward the darker parts of myself that I was too afraid to touch until I really had to. And so, there is a lot of that vulnerability and the questioning: if I have a worth in a relationship, if I’m lovable, if people can deal with me. What I love about this record is that it does delve into those worries, the fears of rejection or abandonment, but then at the end of the record, it’s a message of hope and you can feel all these negative, fearful feelings melting away. And what you’re left with is: “Well, I’m still here. I’m still alive. Things are not so bad. Things are actually really great. I’m in a beautiful relationship. I have a great life.” There are some really positive things to focus on, and you can overcome it.

What exactly is shadow work?

I’m not a scholar on it, but it’s a Jungian concept, I believe. It’s basically just delving a little deeper and investigating the darker parts of yourself, the parts of yourself that you don’t show to anyone, and you don’t even show to yourself, that you can’t face for a long time. And it’s really scary. I mean, it is the parts of yourself that affect your day-to-day life, and you don’t want to admit to yourself that they do, if that makes sense. And so, it’s kind of a loss of identity for a little bit. It’s a bit of an ego death. But once you realize that it’s very human to feel these things, it starts to feel smaller and smaller. And the more you incorporate and shake hands with the darker part of yourself in your day-to-day life, I think the more you understand yourself and the more you understand the world around you — in my opinion, anyway.

Wow. When you talk about embracing the darker parts of yourself or getting rid of an identity, that almost seems like what you’ve done with Messer: It’s a different name, you look a little different, you definitely sound different, and it is darker than what you’re known for.

That’s a really interesting take. And you could be onto something there, because it did start off a little bit darker, aesthetically and musically. And yeah, it almost feels like the rebellious teenage son of the household that’s like, “Eff you, I’m going to figure myself out!” And once you do that, the veil kind of lifts and you feel a certain lightness. And I kind of think that’s what Cuts is.

Obviously you’re primarily known for doing a cappella music, so in what ways were you able to tap into your vocal instrument with Messer that you haven’t or couldn’t with Pentatonix?

What I’ve noticed is that there’s no pressure to meet any sort of deadline necessarily or compromise in any way. And I mean that in the best way possible. I understand that in a group you have to make compromises, but with Messer, I can take as long as I want and I can be as tedious as I want with the vocals and tweak them until I am blue in the face! And I think that’s how I’ve discovered what I do best vocally. … I think I’ve just tapped into more of the storytelling aspect of my voice and utilizing a little bit more dynamics. It’s hard to describe, but I can just place my voice in a really pleasurable part of my throat, and when I sing in that part of my voice, I’m like, “OK, there it is. This is how I was meant to sing!” I feel like I’ve always been looking for that, because it’s always been extremes with me. When I was in musical theater, my voice was very musical theater. When I was studying classical music, it was very classical. Then it was very Pentatonix. But now, this is my own thing. I was like, “How do I sing [solo]? I have no example to go off of.” I think I finally kind of settled into it.

What is the future for Messer? It may have started as a passion project, but will it be something you’ll keep doing and focusing on more and more?

I just love performing my music. There is really nothing like it. And so, there’ll definitely be more music, more performances. I want to grow this fanbase together with the fans, and I just want to try everything out musically that I can and really push my voice to the limit — in a healthy way. It’s really, really rewarding for me spiritually. So, it’s not going anywhere.

Do you have a pie-in-the-sky vision for what a Messer concert would look like if you could do a full tour with a big budget?

Oh my gosh! I’ve always dreamed of having people flanking me to my sides and being on drum machines or synthesizers, and having it be very Kraftwerk.

Oh, that has to happen! In the meantime, what’s next for Pentatonix?

I don’t know how much I can say, but we are working on a new record right now, and actually I’m going to be doing rerecords [this week]. We all are. And I think it’ll be wrapped up really soon, and you’ll get to hear a new album soon.

Is the album going to be original songs?

Yeah, it is largely originals.

That’s exciting! The last thing I’ll ask, just to tie it all together, is a lot of people, if they didn’t watch The Sing-Off, first discovered Pentatonix because of your Daft Punk medley, which won you your first Grammy. I imagine Daft Punk must have some influence on what you do as Messer, so I feel like there’s some kind of full-circle-ness to that.

Oh yeah, totally, totally. The Daft Punk thing started actually with Scott [Hoying] and I in high school. I was obsessed with Daft Punk, and I think I showed him the song “Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger,” and I think we made silly little lip-synching videos to it. And then that obsession carried on through The Sing-Off and yeah, it’s funny how those things work out, huh?

Well, if you ever do that flanked-synthesizer act in Messer’s shows, you can just put Daft Punk robot helmets on those two people. No one will even know!

Can you imagine? And if I get sued, who cares? [laughs]

Right! You’re a rebel, after all.

Exactly.

This Q&A has been edited for brevity and clarity.