“Unfortunately, for me, I’ve learned that maybe in my lifetime I’m not going to see the results of the work that I’m doing,” sighs Nadya Tolokonnikova, creator of Russian feminist protest art collective Pussy Riot. She is sitting quietly at the Honor Fraser Gallery, the night before the opening of her new art and performance-based exhibition Punk’s Not Dead — where Pussy Riot Siberia will make their definitely-not-quiet Los Angeles debut, creating a dark and brutal “tower of sound” inspired Norilsk, the Siberian city where Tolokonnikova grew up. “It’s very much different from stuff I was doing musically before,” she says of the project. “This one feels more experimental, raw, and just weird, which I think is closer to my nature.”

It’s not just night before the premiere of Punk’s Not Dead. This interview takes place just three days before Donald Trump’s presidential inauguration.

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Twelve years ago, Pussy Riot became an international cause célèbre, when Tolokonnikova and four other Pussy Riot members were charged with hooliganism and sentenced to jail for two years for staging a “sacrilegious” protest performance at Moscow’s Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Since her release, Tolokonnikova has become a leading voice in the fight against authoritarian power. But when asked how she finds the will to keep fighting the good fight, when progress is so slow (as evidenced by someone like Trump getting elected for a second term) and making art like this is so risky (her 2022 piece “Putin’s Ashes” landed her on Russia’s most-wanted list), the artist and activist, who says she is prone to depression, admits: “It’s very hard. It is harder than expected.”

Tolokonnikova, now 35, says, “I’ve lived half of my life, and I don’t see lots of fruits of my labor. But I guess that’s part of being an activist. It’s a little bit like an almost like religious-type belief — that sometime later your efforts are going to turn into something good.” She says rage is a “potent emotion to try to create something, try to change something” and she loves “a good scream” — and that energy is abundant in the “art therapy” of her Punk’s Not Dead performances, which are part of Pussy Riot’s Honor Fraser residency running through Jan. 25.

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While Tolokonnikova insists she’s “not a punk girl musically,” she explains, “I think punk is a state of mind, and if you’re ready to question things, if you’re ready to live differently, and if you’re ready to be creative and question the status quo, question your own beliefs, and just experiment with your life and live your life, really, that’s punk to me. … The willingness to be abrasive, live courageously, to me embodies punk. And I don’t see enough of it these days. I feel like at this stage, of late-stage capitalism I guess, everyone feels so insecure. So, people tend to be on the stay-in-the-safe side and don’t say things that can harm them somehow later. I understand where it comes from, from the terrible insecurity that the economic system puts us in. It’s done by design. So, you want to have these spots of resistance, and I’m trying to create one of those. … I really hope that punks will come together to protest the new wave of authoritarianism.”

In the video above and Q&A below, Tolokonnikova opens up about the inspiration behind Punk’s Not Dead, living courageously, her theories as to why political pendulum keeps swinging back to the far right, and her hopes and fears going into 2025.

LYNDSANITY: Tell me about this event. It’s called Punk’s Not Dead, the whole inspiration and impetus behind it.

NADYA TOLOKONNIKOVA: Well, recent political events is the inspiration behind the name. I really hope that punks will come together to protest the new wave of authoritarianism, right-wing populism that is taken over really the entire planet, really see authoritarian trends are popping in different parts of the planet. I think about punk very broadly. I don’t think that “punk” is necessarily a style of clothes or certain style of music. I think punk is a state of mind, and if you’re ready to question things, if you’re ready to live differently, and if you’re ready to be creative and question the status quo, question your own beliefs, and just experiment with your life and live your life, really, that’s punk to me.

The term “punk” does get thrown around and I think a lot of people use it loosely or forget what it’s supposed to mean. They think it’s maybe a certain Hot Topic outfit or whatever. No offense to Hot Topic; I’ve shopped there.

Yeah, same. [laughs]

But just in general, can you expound on what you think punk, at its core, is supposed to be? Because I think you embody it.

Well, what’s important to understand about me is I’m not a punk girl musically. I did not grow up listening to punk. I never was a part of a real punk band, because we started from more art movement; it was like an art gimmick of us being punks. But from what I can gather, I think it’s just very potent. In the beginning, starting with the word itself, it could basically turned upside-down. It used to mean something bad, that the people we were calling “punks” a word for delinquent youths. And then people took it back. It’s like with the word “bitch” or “queer.” I really love that reclaiming the word. The willingness to be abrasive, live courageously, to me embodies punk. And I don’t see enough of it these days. I feel like at this stage, of late-stage capitalism I guess, everyone feels so insecure. So, people tend to be on the stay-in-the-safe side and don’t say things that can harm them somehow later. I understand where it comes from, from the terrible insecurity that the economic system puts us in. It’s done by design. So, you want to have these spots of resistance, and I’m trying to create one of those.

The timing of this project is interesting. It’s three days before the inauguration of Trump for a second term. The first time I interviewed you was in 2018, so it was in the middle of his first term. I looked back on that interview just now, and it went through my mind, like, “Wow, we’re back in the same spot.” A lot of the question that I asked you then are questions I would ask you now. It feels frustrating to think that was seven years ago and not that much has changed, despite people like you and your efforts to foster change. How do you maintain any optimism to keep fighting, when it seems like it’s so hard to create change?

Yeah, it’s very hard. It is harder than expected. It was a source of a lot of internal drama, self-sabotaging, but in the end, you can be sad for a while… and then what are you going to do? Just be sad constantly? You want to build something, and that’s why rage is a very potent word and a very potent emotion. For me, it pops here and there in my art pieces, my music. I think the reaction to something terrible could be either depression and withdrawing and going back into myself and not connecting, really withdrawing from the world, or using rage as a potent emotion to try to create something, try to change something. And unfortunately, for me, I’ve learned that maybe in my lifetime I’m not going to see the results of the work that I’m doing. I’ve lived half of my life, and I don’t see lots of fruits of my labor. But I guess that’s part of being an activist. It’s a little bit like an almost like religious-type belief — that sometime later your efforts are going to turn into something good. But to me, just doing something’s better than [doing nothing]. It’s just a personal choice, like basically art therapy or work therapy.

Nadya Tolokonnikova of Pussy Riot at the Honor Fraser Gallery. (photo: Steve Appleford)

You have a unique vantage point as someone who is from Russia, spends a lot of time in America, a lot of time in Los Angeles, and has been all over the world. It’s a loaded or open-ended question, but given where we were about 10 years ago, when Trump first announced he was running for President and we all thought it was a joke and then we all know what happened, but then Biden came in, now it feels like the pendulum is swinging again. Do you have any just theories about why the pendulum, not just in America, honestly, but globally, has swung back towards this reactionary, conservative vibe?

I’m not a political scientist, but it’s happening all around the world. You see it here in the United States and the Democratic Party — they just were not able to really offer people a cohesive plan how they’re going to be able to make their lives better. I mean, obviously, that buffoon Trump didn’t have even a concept of a plan, but at least it was something different for people, and I think it’s just people trying to look for something else. Whereas the professional mainstream with liberal politicians, those who were studying in Harvard and there’re supposed to be one who are giving us answers, they can’t really, for one or another reason. Maybe they have their hands tied up with money. Obviously, the economy is a big part of it. And again, I’m not an economist, but I guess people feel more and more insecure. My generation has much less economic prospects than the previous one, even. And the kids, they don’t really know. Where are they going to be working? What’s going to be happening in their life? Will they ever be able to buy a house, or they will be living in an apartment for the rest of their lives? And they want someone to answer these questions.

You did mention, sadly, that you’re not sure if you’ll see the kind of change you’d like in your lifetime. But obviously you keep doing what you’re doing out of some sense of hope. You haven’t given up. So, where does that come from? And do you see possibly the pendulum swinging back again?

Hope… I don’t have a clear path if you’re asking I think that will come. I don’t know. I mean, maybe some awesome, fully cool leader will arise, or AOC will take over or someone like her. Actually, I met her when she was working at the bar in New York, just absolutely randomly. So, I think there are cool people and it’s not like we are totally fucked. I mean, I think about stuff like even Artificial Intelligence — if you use it wisely, you could create some sort of abundance. It could create answer to some questions, economic questions, that we have currently, if we use it wisely. But for that reason, obviously, with Elon Musk and Trump taking over, oligarchs basically restrict business. Definitely, they’re not going to be interested in this money flowing into the pockets of us.

You at least have a platform to reach a lot of people. And people listen to you. But I think maybe the average person might feel like there is nothing they can do. They just feel helpless. It might be a simplistic question, but what advice would you give them about how they can act?

Well, you do make a huge difference, because you’re a microcosm. Every life matters. I mean, yeah, I guess I understand the question because sometimes I feel also like it doesn’t matter. And then my pendulum spins into the art mode, creator of all these worlds, demigod. Maybe that’s why I do art, because it makes me feel better, more important. I think you can still build your alternative communities right here and right now and prove that different models of behavior, interaction, one person with another, can work here and now within the current system. And then maybe it will extrapolate for the rest of the world. And then when I talk about it, I think about ecological communes for living sustainably or building ecologically sustainable housing. That’s very cool. It is very niche. It’s niche as fuck. But I’m sitting in my non-sustainable house, making this research, coming across this YouTube video about this person living [sustainably], and it inspires me a lot. And maybe it will inspire a future Obama to rebuild, I don’t know, the entire Pacific Palisades, at least in this manner.

Specific to this Punk’s Not Dead event at the Honor Fraser Gallery, is there anything else you want to talk about in terms of its messaging or its timing?

Well, this part first is all about performance. It’s me exploring artifacts of the performance, the same method I used with “Putin’s Ashes”: I made a performance, collected the ashes, and then put them into sculptural collages. That later made its way to the gallery, to museums; the Brooklyn Museum of Art collected it. I keep experimenting with it, but now I create this red shield right here and right now, and the red shield that I’m carving also serves as a musical instrument during the performance. I’m playing around with the idea of artifacts of performance. Basically, how do you encapsulate performance in something other than just video or a photo? And then there are three works that are called Barbed Wire with “punk’s not dead, punk’s not dead” repeated in the ornament of this barbed wire that also resembles an orthodox cross. And it’s almost like a prayer — I’m trying to convince myself where it maybe manifested the “Punk’s Not Dead.” It all comes together through the performance. I look at the entire space, almost like a church. So, there are icons, which is visual art. There is prayer, which is performance. And there’s the building, which is the entire installation. We control everything. Lighting, even smell — we burn this traditional orthodox incense.

How performing this cathartic for you? I watched your preview performance and I could tell how much you were feeling it.

Well, I like a good scream. I like specifically about this project that it’s alive and keeps evolving… the way we use everything is very much different from one performance to another, and it depends on our mood and the audience. It’s cool. It’s very much different from stuff I was doing musically before. Those performances a little bit more to me felt like a theater play because you know what’s going on, you know exactly when the chorus is going to come. And it was cool because the audience can sing with you, they know the song, but this one feels more experimental, raw, and just weird, which I think is closer to my nature.

Yes, you’re punk as fuck. Punk is not dead because of you, so thank you for that. My last question is, as we’re going into a possibly chaotic 2025, what are your hopes fears, goals, aspirations for the world? Not a small question, I guess…

Not a small question. Well, I am going to be working on a series of performances that’s called 100 Rituals for 100 Utopian Futures. I’m almost forcing myself to think hopefully about the future, because the reality is bleak and I’m also prone to depression, so if I just let myself slide into that, it’s no good. It’s going to come out. So, I’m thinking about things like, what creates a society of dependence? What if we actually really took care of our elders and listened to them? What about a society where divine feminine is in the center of spiritual life? And I know some silly childish things, but I still think it’s a good thought experiment — for example, what if we quite literally had money trees, so people could just come and take as much as they need, so nobody would have greed because they can take just whatever they need for now? And there will be a ritual for friendly AI, because I think that’s important. We’re about to reach a very dangerous point, and we should be thinking about it.

Yeah, like AI isn’t going to go away, we can’t stop it, so we might as well figure out a way to work with it instead of against it.

Yeah. The soundtrack for this exhibit is created in collaboration with an AI.

Very interesting. Well, again, thank you so much for this interview and for everything you do. Stay hopeful. I’m going to try as well.

OK. I’ll do my best.

“Things are not that different, surprisingly, for our countries,” muses Nadya Tolokonnikova, leader of notorious Russian feminist punk/art collective Pussy Riot. “It’s not the easiest time right now, and sometimes I find myself in political depression. It’s not always easy, but I know it’s not easy for our people in other countries as well. You [Americans] got your own s***.”

This comment, of course, leads to a conversation about the reportedly chummy relationship between President Trump and Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, of which Tolokonnikova says: “I think it’s harmful for the world politics, this trend of authoritarian leaders and so-called strong hands, but I think in fact just a really insecure bunch of men who are trying to hide their insecurities with their machismo. So, I don’t really feel like it’s good it became a trend.” However, she adds on a more positive note, “But I see that people are really ready to resist. I was in the United States when Women’s March happened. … I loved the spirit of it, and I loved that people of even different views sometimes, or different political views, decided to join each other to protest against Trump. That’s something that we have to relearn, I guess, how to make our governments accountable for what they’re doing.”

Tolokonnikova is visiting Yahoo’s Los Angeles headquarters to promote Pussy Riot’s first-ever live U.S. concerts at L.A.’s Lodge Room and Bootleg Theater, followed by an onstage conversation with Chelsea Manning and Laurie Anderson at Houston’s Day for Night festival. These momentous events take place five years after Pussy Riot became an international cause célèbre, when Tolokonnikova and four other Pussy Riot members were charged with hooliganism and sentenced to jail for two years for staging a “sacrilegious” protest performance at Moscow’s Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Now, even after that horrific ordeal, Tolokonnikova’s spirit and sense of humor are very much intact, and she chucklingly admits that during her incident-free stateside concerts this month, she hasn’t felt the same rush of adrenaline that she gets when playing guerrilla events in her native land. “Because if you are an artist who has strong political beliefs in Russia, you cannot really expect that you will go to venue and you will play the whole show without being shut down!”

Pussy Riot perform their first U.S show in Los Angeles. (Photo: Consequence of Sound) 

Surprisingly, Tolokonnikova still resides in Moscow. (“I feel like home is a big thing for me, and Russian culture and Russian language. Our art is tied with Russian politics. The reason why we started to do what we had started because we want to get rid of Putin, because we want to change our country, because we want to live our lives in a crazy, colorful, punk way and not being persecuted because of that. We still think it’s achievable. We still have hopes.”) However, she has spent a good deal of time recording music in America and therefore has a unique vantage point when it comes to U.S. politics and art. In May 2016, she even donned Trump drag for Pussy Riot’s prescient, Jonas Akerlund-directed “Make America Great Again” music video, a darkly humorous depiction of a Trump dictatorship; however, when the video came out before the presidential election, it suddenly seemed less amusing.

“I didn’t want to predict it [the election], I didn’t,” Tolokonnikova says of the controversial video, “but I felt like people are not treating elections here seriously enough. I’m not American, and I don’t live in America, so I may be wrong about it. But I just felt like Hillary Clinton supporters, people who are standing for progressive values, they weren’t concerned enough with this threat that were coming from far-right Republicans and from Donald Trump himself. I think a lot more things could be done and a lot more bridges could be built.”

It’s interesting, and unexpected, to hear a woman known for her extreme political views argue for bridge-building between the left and right. (“Punk is, for me, is to challenge status quo, including your own status quo, all the time, surprise every day and give people something that they don’t expect.”) But Tolokonnikova points out that “living in bubbles of our ideology” is “a disease of our time. It’s not just about Republicans. It’s about us, too. It’s about people of progressive ideology. We don’t want to talk with Trump supporters. I don’t necessarily want to talk to people who support Putin, but I have to, because otherwise we will never build this bridge, build this understanding. How can we act together? We need to somehow communicate and do things together.”

“That’s why I think it’s really important to build alternative institutions, civil society institutions like educational institutions, health care institutions, alternative media [like MediaZona, the independent Russian news service Pussy Riot launched in 2014], to show people that we really can be helpful to them. … It’s important to talk to people, and it’s important to build this trust and understanding. It’s important to listen to people. Sometimes you want to not use ideological terms in order to achieve this understanding. We don’t want to attack a person right away with a lot of words like, I don’t know, ‘isms.’”

Tolokonnikova further explains that this mindset was even why Pussy Riot chose to stage their 2012 church performance. “If you take a look at the ’60s, you see Martin Luther King, you see Malcolm X. People did know how to use religion not to oppress themselves but makes themselves more free. And it seems like right now Christian rights, they grab the religion, and it’s really not easy for activists to use religion, which is basically a good thing. If you read the New Testament, that’s a really powerful thing,” she says. “That’s why we went to the church. We wanted to bring Christians on our side. We wanted to say, ‘No, no, no, real Christians, they shouldn’t vote for Putin, because he’s not an honest man. He’s killing people.’”

During her time in prison, Tolokonnikova learned about the importance of bridge-building and sharing information. Even though prison guards had forbidden other inmates to talk to her, in an attempt to isolate her and “turn my life into hell,” she managed to make friends, many of whom were initially pro-Putin. “Just in one month, you can totally change somebody’s worldview, not by preaching or by trying to change their mind actively, but just giving them a lot of literature, books, or magazines,” she recalls. “So after one month I spent in one correctional facility, I opened the room, and I saw my fellow prisoners in a circle. They were discussing Putin. They were discussing his recent reforms. They were discussing corruption in the government, in police stations. One month ago, they would all say to me, ‘No, no, no, we like Putin. We’re really up for his government!’  Without me saying anything, they were just reading magazines [and changing their minds]. … They were so brave, so you just learn how brave people are and how warm and how just incredible human spirits.”

Pussy Riot recently released the dystopian video for “Police State,” starring Chloe Sevigny, which was inspired by Tolokonnikova living more than half her life under Putin’s rule. (“The level of corruption is just incredible. They’re stealing everything. We are a really wealthy country with a lot of natural resources, but people are really poor because everything goes to not just the 1 percent, but a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny particle of 1 percent. … We don’t want to take it anymore.”) But the collective’s next single and guerrilla-style music video, “Nasheed,” sounds like it might be a little more lighthearted. Tolokonnikova explains: “It means ‘Our World.’ Basically, it’s an homage to this infamous phrase, kind of something like your ‘MAGA.’ … We are suggesting in this song that we need to occupy the FSB building in the middle of Moscow and open a toy store.”

And, back to the subjects of MAGA and how Tolokonnikova has maintained an unbroken spirit despite everything she has endured, she keeps things in perspective by looking back at the rape scene that she had to film for the above-mentioned “Make America Great Again” music video. “I never had this [assault] experience in my [real] life, luckily, but even playing it, it was just disgusting. So, for the second half of the day after that, I was crying on the set. I have to be judged, but I have tears in my eyes. I can’t even imagine what people who went through rape, I don’t know how they keeping up their spirit. You were asking me how did I went through jail, but I think there are much worse things in life. And so, when I was in jail, I was thinking about I don’t want to be self-pity, because it’s not the worst situation. I’m still safe physically. I still have my mind. I can think, I can make art, and I can help other people. And through helping other people, I can help myself.”

Watch Nadya Tolokonnikova’s full conversation with Yahoo below.

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This article originally ran on Yahoo Music.